Showing posts with label GREEN GARTSIDE. Show all posts
Showing posts with label GREEN GARTSIDE. Show all posts

Saturday, May 16, 2026

Fuck Art, Let's Dance / Fuck Dance, Let's Art

 (a talk I gave at Harvard in 2012 at a conference on Art + Rock) 


“When 'art' walks through the door, it's got 15 suitcases full of very smelly washing (ideas of 'geniuses', 'creativity', 'individualism', and the rest of it)...which as far as we're concerned is the kind of crap that just clutters up your back garden, and gets in the way when you want to go out…. There is an art-based conversation that is swamping our neighbourhood, right? It's detrimental to our practice…. [It’s] high-culturally derived hogwash, and it's dragging us down… Half the groups that are around at the moment are ex-art-college groups… You are on board a sinking ship--you're one hulk of a rotting carcass, whose language...y'know... don't chuck it over us, chum, because it's redolent of all things tedious, repressive and slimy.”

- art school graduate Green Gartside, speaking to the art journal Primary Sources on the International Performing Arts, 1979

"Iggy pretty much changed my life. I saw him in 1969, when I had been fooling around a bit with electronic music, but I was still basically a visual artist....  Out walks this androgynous figure, no shirt on, muscled. He was walking out telling everybody to go fuck themselves and he had this look in his eye, and this amazing body. It kicked into “I Wanna Be Your Dog,” then “1969,” and suddenly Iggy’s flying into the audience. Then he’s back onstage and cutting himself up with drumsticks and bleeding. The bass player is humping the guitar player with his bass. The whole set lasted 20 minutes maybe. Usually at rock shows they put on some rock’n’roll between the bands’ sets, but right after the the Stooges finished, whoever was in the sound booth put on one of Bach’s Brandenburg Concertos. It was perfect, because what we had just seen was great art, and the person in the booth understood that.... I realized that, as a [visual] artist, I could either carry on down this road and be dishonest, or I had to make some moves. Whatever I was doing as an artist was insignificant at this point. That’s what got me moving in the direction of the music thing more intensely—because it was a vehicle for doing something more environmental than painting."

- Alan Vega, painter / light-sculptor and member of a New York artists collective


Lester Bangs, in conversation with Jim De Rogatis, 1982

LB: "Rolling Stone's Jon Landau was saying things at the time like every Glenn Campbell album, every Jerry Vale album, every Helen Reddy album, every Ann Murray album was a distinct piece of art which should not be looked at as a piece of product.

JdR: That's definitely against your theory, right? Rock is not art.

LB: Oh, I don't know. I double back on myself so much. There's the trash aesthetic and all that. The way I've written about the Velvet Underground and Van Morrison, of course it's art.


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

Rock has never quite made its mind up about "art"

Is the status of “art” something to aspire towards, to claim and to seize in defiance of those who would judge rock’n’roll as so low it's beneath consideration?

Or is "art" precisely, for those same reasons, something to recoil from --  should the onset of artiness be feared as the point at which a vital lowliness begins to fade,  the confinement or castration of an energy that is properly plebeian, out in the world in a radically democratic way?

In the rock’n’roll world, art often has negative connotations –  suggestive a deficit of the visceral, effete conceptualism, dry detachment --   it suggests institutionalization, politeness...

Acceptance is equated with acceptability

Art is improving, it’s associated with education - whereas rock’n’roll should be closer to truancy, delinquency, the un-edifying.

In “What A Waste”, Ian Dury lists all the socially valuable careers he could have pursued but instead he chose to be a singer in a band, the Blockheads: “what a waste what a waste... rock’n’roll don’t mind” – 

Yet Ian Dury studied at the Royal Court of Art, actually taught at various art colleges...


He’s just one of numerous  literally art-schooled people in rock who’ve acted out an ambivalence towards art – John Lennon, Pete Townsend are others who have done many arty, pretentious things with rock, but also have at other times argued that the art discourse contaminates rock, weakens it, makes it pompous, addles it with self-consciousness

This distrust of art can be traced far back in the history of rock – almost to the moment  at which rock acquired self-consciousness and aspired to being art.

There was a point at which rock’n’roll shed the “‘n roll” -  people now talked of rock –and Dury and Lennon would come to see this shift as a tragic development.

Dury was obsessed with 50s rock’n’roll, worshipped Gene Vincent, hated hippies --– Lennon was totally the long haired hippy and then he decided psychedelia had been a huge mistake – he would  revert back to rock’n’roll, a stylized recreation of 50s music in its purity and innocence.

The lost or shed "n’roll" signified a teenage orientation, as lack of adult sophistication lyrically and musically,

It refers back to when rock’n’roll in the Fifties sense was at once rawer and more showbiz --  the pre-Beatles rock’n’rollers carried themselves on TV and radio in a well-behaved way, said “sir” to the hosts, whereas Lennon was ironic, informal, surly – a bohemian, 

As raw and rootsy as early rock’n’roll was, it was still largely entwined in the discourse of showbiz -- as the career of Elvis shows, the rebels collapse very rapidly into middle of the road entertainment.

Your typical 50s rock’n’roller didn’t see himself as an Artist but as an Artiste. The 'e' on the end is very significant. They saw themselves as entertainers, the groups wore stage outfits. Few of them were artistically autonomous in the way the Sixties rock era artists became: mostly they didn't write their own material and their managers pushed them towards light entertainment as soon as they could, becoming an all-round entertainer. 

The move to “rock”  in the mid-60s  is an aspiration towards thematic maturity,  a conception of lyrics as being a form of poetry or literature. But it's also about being artistically independent, in control. The  band as an artist that is growing, evolving, questing -- whereas entertainers basically have a shtick that they stick with. An act.

This mid-Sixties art-ification was described scornfully by The Fall’s Mark E Smith, speaking to NME in 1981: ”when the students got hold of rock’n’roll, that’s when it started going downhill” 

Prior to Beatlemania, middle class youth, even those who had loved rock’n’roll as teenagers believed that rock’n’roll was a fad that had faded away. When they went up to university in the early Sixties, they were either folkies or they were into jazz – these were the mature options

But then through the Beatles and the Stones and the electric Dylan, rock’n’roll returns in new improved form: the sound as raw as ever, but the attitude and content even more appealing through its poetic and arty qualities.

From approximately 1965 onwards, largely unchallenged until 1976, there followed an unbroken period in which there was a broad consensus that rock could be and should be Art -- the long reign of  progressive rock, art rock, singer-songwriter and sophisto rock – steely dan, little feat, joni Mitchell, ry cooder, randy newman  – even in something as seemingly lumpen as heavy metal you had the experimentations of led zeppelin, deep purple recording with a symphony orchestra  -- the interpretations of what art was ranged from jethro tull to brian eno and all points in between, but the overall consensus was that rock was art, potentially at least.

But you had a tiny sect of dissidents  – musicians as high profile as Lennon and barely known as Flamin Groovies. You had heretical critics.

The first pop writer to express a profound ambivalence about pop-as-art was Nik Cohn in Awopboloopbop abopbamboom,  published in 1969 – but written in 1968, placing him ahead of the pack, although there had been a handful of dissenters from the acclaim for Sgt Pepper’s.

It’s The Beatles and Dylan above all that Cohn is most suspicious of . In his book he sounds regular notes of disquiet. Dylan, he concedes “has grown pop up, he has given it brains” but he pointedly declares that “in my own life the Monotones have meant more in one line of ‘book of love’ than Dylan did in the whole of Blonde on Blonde” 

Revolver was a  “a big step forward in ingenuity” but a “big step back in guts” and “ because everyone copied the Beatles, ‘that’s why there’s no more good fierce rock’n’roll music no more honest trash”.   The posh Sunday newspapers—“ say they're  Art...  but after all, what's so great about Art? What does it have on Superpop?"

Superpop is Cohn’s superlative for everything from Little Richard to Phil Spector to  his personal pet artist PJ Proby. In the final short chapter of Awopbop he contrasts Superpop with rock after its shed the  ‘n roll

“What I’ve written about has been the rise and Fall of Superpop, the noise machine, and the image, hype and beautiful flash of rock’n’roll music. ... Superpop? It hasn’t been much, it’s been simple always, silly and vulgar and fake, and it has been a noise, that’s all. ... Superpop, it’s been like a continuing Western, it’s had that classic simplicity, the same power to turn cliché into myth. It’s had no mind of its own. All it’s ever done has been to catch currents, moods, teen obsessions, and freeze them in images. ... made giant caricatures of lust, violence, romance and revolt... it’s finished now, the first mindless explosion, and the second stage has begun..... Pop has split itself into factions. Part of it has a mind now, makes fine music. The other part is purely industrial, a bored and boring business like any other. “

This huge gulf  that’s opened up within pop is  a chasm between lowbrow and highbrow. It has reproduced within a once unified Superpop, aka rock’n’roll, the very  division between high and low that had once consigned all of rock’n’roll  to the category of junk, trash, mindless pabulum from the culture industry.  The market now, he says, is 80 percent manufactured teenpop for AM radio and 20 percent progressive music for FM rock – semipopular music, in terms of its sales.

Cohn: “ In ten years, they’ll probably be called by another name entirely, electric music or something, and they’ll relate to pop the way that art movies relate to Hollywood...., you’ll have pop composers writing formal works for pop choirs, pop orchestras; you’ll have pop concerts held in halls and the audience all sat in rows, no screaming or stamping but applauding politely with their hands; you’ll have sounds and visuals combined, records that are played on something like a gramophone and TV set knocked intot one, the music creating picture and patterns; you’ll have cleverness of every kind imaginable. Myself, though, I’m not interested. Not that I have anything much against masterworks in principle but I’m hooked on image, on heroics. It’s like films – the best in art movies have no doubt been the most sensitive, brilliant and meaningful works of art, and where have I been? In the back row of the Roxy, of course, gawking at Hollywood. The art movie carries the quality and Hollywood carries the myth.”

So here Cohn aligns Superpop -  in his view, true pop -  with blockbuster movies, pulp entertainment made by the Hollywood system.

Cohn offers here a very early form of what is now known as poptimism or popism:  a belief in the de facto  superiority of “good honest pop product”,  a trust in the major labels, who like the Hollywood system, to keep on churning out great entertainment precisely because they only care about money. Their output is  sublimely uncontaminated with artistic intent, it aims only to thrill and distract - and get your dollar.

This is one of two ways that the art-ification of rock has been resisted.

The first, the Cohn stance, is basically pro-capitalist, it folds pop and rock back into showbiz, sees records as units of commodified  pleasure, the performance as a spectacle. Performers and producers alike are seen as highly skilled professionals. There is a kind of cynical-realist integrity to this factory-line production of  good honest commodified entertainment. You can consume without illusions about it being meaningful or the harbinger of revolution. A sort of almost gustatory honesty in the way the consumer consumes, enjoys, and then forgets.  Pop is disposable. 

The other anti-art view comes from a completely different, anti-capitalist angle: it is folk-ist. Authentic music emerges from the people organically, reflects the worldview and concerns of that community. It then gets co-opted and commodified and eventually weakened.  Just as bad as selling out is when it gets gentrified. "Folk" ideology here is not necessarily tied to the formal properties of traditional music, to acoustic guitars and such. Folk-ism  includes urban conceptions of the folk culture: notions like the streets, the ghetto, as represented in rap or certain kinds of dance music.












Around the same time as Cohn published Awopbop, a  different dissenting view about rock-as-art was being formulated in America,  not Superpop and if anything leaning to the folk view in so far as it valued a certain primal rawness. Lester Bangs was the major prophet here although there were others such as Greg Shaw whose Who Put the Bomp magazine was one of Bangs main outlets, the other being Creem magazine.

Creem dubbed itself "America's Only Rock'n'Roll Magazine" --a jibe at Rolling Stone -- while Who Put the Bomp!'s had the slogan "rock & roll, all rock & roll, and nothing but rock & roll" . 

So that’s the reinstatement of the ‘n roll right there.

This vision of a return to rock‘n roll doesn’t have Nik Cohn’s mythic Hollywood Western pulp quality but it’s very teenage. Its a stylized, idealized version of adolescence, the inarticulate brutish juvenile delinquent – and a  rejection of the introspective sensitivity of singer-songwriters such as James Taylor in favor of the two-dimensional cartoon of boredom and lust and aggression offered by The Stooges.

Celebrating Iggy Pop and his band,   Bangs insisted that true rock'n'roll was "essentially adolescent music… it can't grow up";  he retrospectively celebrates the sixties garage bands he once despised and says that the bands he admired then, like the Yardbirds and the Who “ got ‘good’ and arty with subtle eccentric songs and fine philosophy...”   This pales next to  the Stooges debut LP and Funhouse  whose raw power  is “supermodern, though nothing near to Art”.

"Nothing near to Art" - like "art" is cooties, something to recoil from... a contaminant, a debilitator

For heretics like Bangs and Cohn, Sgt Pepper's was the sacred cow they aimed to slaughter. But ironically Lennon at the exact same time was moving in the same direction --  distancing himself from bourgie art and reinstating the ‘n’roll.

In the famous 1970 Rolling Stone interview, Lennon equates Fifties rock’n’roll with reality, a raw truth that cut through both socialized pretence and artistic pretension.  He asserts that nothing since has been better than simple 50s rock’n’roll and further, that the best Beatles stuff was in that vein: it was the music they made before they ever entered the recording studio – their live performances in Hamburg,

Lennon: "The best stuff is primitive and has no bullshit…  It's not perverted or thought about." 

What followed seemed to echo Hamlet’s mother exasperated suggestion to the verbose  Polonius -  “more matter, with less art”. So,  the primal venting of the Plastic Ono band album, then a different form of plain speech, Some Time In New York City,  lyrically blunt lyrics addressing sexism, racism, injustice,  Northern Ireland, over gutbucket rock with no frills. Lennon here makes a folk ist argument for rock as the people’s music,anticipating the sloganeering side of punk that included Tom Robinson Band or CRASS.  

Of course while he was going back to art-less rock’n’roll Lennon was up to all kind of arty shenanigans with Yoko both on record and in the public eye.  And these hopelessly unresolved feelings about whether rock could or should be art anticipated a kind of vital identity crisis at the heart of punk – a movement containing a high proportion of art school people, manifesting artiness everywhere from the clothes to the graphic art of flyers and record covers to–  yet often prone to anti-art and anti-intellectual rhetoric.

Malcolm McLaren  is a good case study – a product of the British art school system, attending three different colleges during the 1960s, he talked retrospectively of punk and the Pistols as  a gigantic art piece bearing his signature.

 “Rather than just while away my time painting, I decided to use people, just the way a sculptor uses clay,” he declared, airily.  

Epating the bourgeoisie via the mass media was Good Art. 

Yet when Johnny Rotten formed Public Image Ltd, its overt experimentalism was for McLaren a relapse into Bad Art:  1970s-style progressive post-psychedelic music, which he loathed. Like Lennon and Ian Dury, he adored 50s rock’n’roll,  Gene Vincent and Eddie Cochran. Postpunk was music for students. 

Of PiL’s Metal Box, McLaren sneered “He's asking you to take a course in music before you understand it.”  

Rock and roll, he said was "only a bloody Mickey Mouse medium really.” that was what was good about – its larger than life cartoon quality.  An echo of Cohn’s Superpop vision.

McLaren would argue with increasing vehemence in years to come that Rotten had always been a closet hippy, an aesthete, and that the true Pistol was Steve Jones,  working class, a petty criminal who stole  the band’s gear by breaking into the backstage area of a Bowie concert –wonderfully symbolizing the McLaren idea of punk as the working class’s revenge against art rock 

And also Sid Vicious, who had the ability to lose himself in a cartoon persona, become this mythic scale anti-hero, 

Lydon himself was totally conflicted on the subject of art. In a 1978 interview he spat: “I hate art. I can’t stand it”.  This despite having studied a course in art at a Further Education college. In the Pistols documentary The Filth and the Fury, Steve Jones described Lydon as “an intellectual" but he often mocked those who "intellectualized" things ( like Greil Marcus with his analysis of punk in Lipstick Traces). Lydon dismissed Situationism as "mind games for the muddled classes", a jibe not just at Marcus but at McLaren, fingered as the arty poseur trying to intrude fancy French theories into visceral rock’n’roll, and perhaps Pistols designer Jamie Reid, another art school product who probably professed to hate art.

The confusion comes I think from Lydon’s social background – working class, but encouraged by his mother to read from an early age, he was widely read, enjoyed taking exams, at the Further College Education college enjoyed talking to the teachers in the pub about Shakespeare. But at the same time a great wariness about becoming bourgeois, an exaggerated loyalty to one’s roots. 

A similar kind of ambivalence is detectable in The Fall’s Mark E. Smith -  both Smith and Lydon came from this abiding stratum in British society, this  liminal zone where upper working class bleeds into lower middle class, a precarious zone but the source of so much of the exciting energy in British pop culture, the social bedrock of mod, glam, punk

So Smith, like Lydon is a supersharp autodidact, a bookworm , who never went to university. He left school to get a low level white collar clerical job as a clerk. Throughout the Fall’s career there’s on the one hand a self-taught artiness (Smiths’ lyrical influences include  Wyndham Lewis,  the band would collaborate with the avant-garde ballet dancer Michael Clark) and on the other  perpetual sneering at their art school peers in postpunk,  at  music paper critics who over-intellectualise the band.

Early on The Fall actually had a song “Hey Student’ jeering at all the undergraduates in Manchester -- as well as typical working class contempt for freeloading  students with generous grants  it was a music taste based enmity.  I read before the quote about “when the students got hold of rock’n’roll, that’s when it started going downhill” . Smith then pointed particularly towards the Soft Machine and their Canterbury scene cohorts. These were mainstays of the early Seventies college gig circuit; Canterbury itself is the British city with the densest number of colleges in the country. 

 However when Smith realized that most of the Falls fans were students he changed  “Hey Student” to “Hey Racist” to fit the Rock Against Racism issues of the time. It was never recorded at the time of writing, but much later, for  1994’s Middle Class Revolt, “Hey Student” was resurrected: the old lyrics sneering at the students’s “long hair” were updated with references to Pearl Jam. (It's hardly the only example of studentphobia in rock).



What concerns Smith here is the eternal reopening of a social divide within rock – something that  first rock’n’roll and then early-to-mid Sixties British beat music and mod, and then again punk had managed to bridge. 

When this social divide opens up again it is invariably accompanied with the return of art discourse --  a classic instance is the split in mod between psychedelic artiness and the skinheads, who loved Jamaican ska, Northern Soul.

Psychedelia and progressive rock, then postpunk, and then in the 80s and 90s indie and alternative rock and shoegaze: this is the eternal breaking off a semi-popular, bourgeois form of rock. Exactly the same split that bothered Nik Cohn, although less in these social-political terms and more because the music he loved became enfeebled 

 As early as 1978, Mark E. Smith bemoaned an emerging chasm in the New Wave between arty intellectual bands (like Magazine) and “your headbanger bands for ordinary people.” A few years later, he argued that heavy metal was a healthier subculture than post-punk: metal kids didn’t spend all their time thinking about music. Attempting a kind of one-band reunification of the split halves of rock, Smiths’ vision for The Fall was a primitivist-modernism: they started drawing on rockabilly influences, talked of themselves as “a very retrogressive band in a lot of ways”, anything to short circuit there being enfolded in the  progressive discourse of postpunk.  "The band was attracting a lot of elitists, a lot of Eno-orientated crapheads”, Smith complained in one interview. Then there is the lyric that says "the experimental is now conventional".

Smith, like Lydon, was working class and, unlike Lydon, hadn’t dabbled in further education at all. But so powerful was the punk mythos of a reuniting of the classes through a stylized, dialectical reversion to rock’n’roll, that it had a powerful and enduring influence even on people who passed through the university system.  Such as Greil Marcus,  who wrote a whole essay called Against Art, launching off from a sneering stage comment by Penelope Houston of San Francisco punk band The Avengers  after they’ve come on following the avant-garde percussion performer Zev has finished – " what do you call that anyway? I guess it was Aaaart" 

Yet Houston was the daughter of an artist, she was studying at the San Francisco art institute.  Marcus himself trained to be a professor and is no stranger to museums and exhibitions and symposiums.  Nonetheless in “Against Art” Marcus talks approvingly about  “the instinctive distrust of art by pop music “ which is  rooted  in “the perception that very little art has actually added anything to pop music”. The only  exception he can think of is Andy Warhol’s Double and Triple Elvises

A similar idea is expressed by Bill Drummond, active in the postpunk era as a musician, record label runner, and manager– a former art school student himself,. In 1971 his mind was blown by a Warhol exhibition   – but then he changed his mind and the last essay he wrote at art college before dropping out was ‘Why Andy Warhol is shite and the Beatles are fab’.  If you got a single by the Beatles, your single was as good as anybody else’s. ‘Nobody’s copy is more original than your copy’.  But Warhol was only painting the pictures of the Coca Cola bottles, whereas the Beatles are being the Coca Cola bottles. “  

Warhol in the end was just the same as any artist, making singular artworks that then became collectable and valuable in the art market –  pop music was radically democratic, mass production art.  Warhol celebrated that –he once said “the idea of America is so wonderful because the more equal something is, the more American it is”—but cannily bottled it in a form that could play in high art and high society terms. In a sense Warhol made America play in European terms.

This antipathy to Art endured for Drummond  - his late 80s/early 90s outfit The KLF had a run of huge chart success with various pranksterish and absurdist singles – then in the 1992 they quit and then mutated into  the K Foundation, one of whose initiatives was to stage a parody of the Turner Prize for Art in Britain. In 1993 they presented a shortlist for their award for the worst piece of art, the shortlist being identical for the Turner’s shortlist for best work of art – and when Rachel Whiteread won her 20 thousand prize, the K Foundation gave her 40 thousand,  drawn from the royalties of hits like “Justified and Ancient”

The KLF’s big Nineties hits were in a style they called “stadium house”,  inspired by Drummond’s encounter with rave culture, in the UK was a youthquake on a par with punk or indeed early rock’n’roll. When I interviewed him in 1991 he talked of it in terms of a mass quasi-religious experience.  But it was mass in another sense: for a moment there between 1988 and 1992, a music that united youth across class lines.

Although  quite a bit younger than Drummond, my thinking is similarly shaped by punk, and my own baptismal immersion in rave culture, in 91 and 92, had a similar social-utopian dimension – the transcendence of class and race divisions in a new music that echoed the impact of rock’n’roll, mod, punk....   And the way it played out in terms of my subsequent critical writing on post-rave  electronic dance music involved this same old strange dance around the idea of art.

Even as I joined the party, rave was starting to fragment, the split between headbanger beats for the proles and fancy music with arty aspirations that Mark E Smith complained about in the late 70s, that was reconstituting itself –  despite my class and education, just through circumstances as a late arrival I found myself on the right side of the tracks, which is to say the wrong side of the tracks – captivated by the most lumpen, druggily hedonistic forms of  rave – hardcore as it was known then

Discerning folk deemed it a debased mutant of true techno -- but I, semi-consciously following in the footsteps of Cohn and Bangs, celebrated hardcore with a mixture of defiance and doubt in my own taste. “Trash but I luvvit” is the phrase I used in the first substantial piece on ardkore I wrote, in The Wire, late 1992.  

The idea was familiar: this impure,  sub-music could access barbarian powers that surpassed the more accomplished forms of techno then emerging . But because of my knowledge of critical history I was totally aware that this was a Lester Bangs move –  in some other writings I would invoke garage punk as an example of a once despised music that was subsequently vindicated as more prophetic of music’s future.

Nonetheless it was hard, so hard,  to resist reaching for the Art word, for there was a deranged twisted complexity to the breakbeat editing and  sinister atmospheres emerging in the music as it developed, It demanded recognition as an avant-garde.

The way around this fix for me was to imagine it as a street vanguard, ignorant of its own status as an avant-garde and all the better for that, more potent. 

So I used the word avant-lumpen. For a while I used the term “artcore”, punning on hardcore.

Bbut then within a year, as the outside world partly thanks to this kind of rhetoric by me and a few others, accepted and indeed hailed the music – now known as jungle or drum’n’bass --  a self-conscious deepness and musicality began to change the music.   I reversed on that move and looked again for the most lumpen, dancefloor functional, druggy sectors of the music  -- soon I was using the word “art techno” as a mildly disdainful word for a kind of album oriented home listening designed electronic music that drew on some of the hardcore/jungle innovations but presented them in palatable or annoyingly quirky form.

In Energy Flash I have a chapter on that zone, called Fuck Dance Let’s Art, a reversal of the customary expression, about my ambivalent feelings about art techno, what would later be called Intelligent Dance Music.

I was hopelessly trying to arrest the development of the music, which to me felt like a weakening, vital rudeness turned to devitalized politeness –  vibrant tastelessness reduced to inspid tastefulness. I was equally trying to shore up or recover a lost moment of unity that cut across class lines, also in the UK  very much crossing racial divisions too. 

I had found myself almost by accident inside a moment that was like punk, like the Beatles-Stones-Who moment, like rock’n’roll. “Art” was at once the accolade this music deserved, even the most trashy and ephemeral forms of it  ( like chaotic pirate radio transmissions I taped and which I described in my rave history Energy Flash as among my absolute most precious and venerated cultural artifacts of the 20th Century) and yet art was also the downfall, the betrayal, a terrible branding burden.

"Art" then as we’ve seen has this peculiar reversible status.

It seems to fit the profile of what Frank Kogan calls Superwords 

Kogan I should say is a classic example of the critic whose worldview is shaped by punk and is unable to resolve his feelings about art, on the one hand railing against what he calls the PBS-ification of rock, a creeping gentility, which led him to celebrate all kinds of teenpop and most recently the ultraplastic pop of South Korea. On the other hand he has compared the lyrics of Ashlee Simpson to  the poetry of Dylan and Patti Smith.

The  ‘superword’, explains Kogan is  "a word that causes controversies, that gets fought over, that sometimes runs on ahead of its embodiments; a word that seems to jettison adherents" 

Punk is a good example, a prize everyone is seeking to claim and define as they see it. 

But “art” , in the rock context, is even more fraught than a superword

There is an attraction-repulsion syndrome that surrounds the term, in the rock discourse. Art is a birthright that you’ve been cheated of and that you chase, right up until the point it is acquired, when it is immediately renounced, it becomes toxic, repugnant.  

Another way of  looking at the role the word art plays in rock discourse is supplied by Donald Kuspit’s book The Dialectic of Decadence 

According to Kuspit, “in modernity, every novel art is at first taken to be non-art, but once it is finally accepted as art – which it would not have been had it not been novel and uncanny enough to seem like non-art – it is understood to have failed or fallen short of Art as such, and is dismissed into art history” -

Decadence is a state of debility, the depletion of instinctual energy, and its replacement by irony, detachment,  an over-developed sense of history.  Hence the never-ending need for an influx of barbarian energy from "outside"

Art looks to non-art for renewal – as Warhol did with the images and trademarks of mass production and commerce.

In the beginning, all  of rock’n’roll was on the right, which is to say,  wrong side of the boundary – the non-art side --  trash, noise, jungle music, all rhythm– at once savage and industrial, raw like folk and manufactured like showbiz.

Then, in a triumph that is simultaneously a defeat, artistic value was conferred on it  -- and so the ever-recurring need is to get beyond that pale again. Which is also to rejoin the real world, to get out there, away from the white walled rooms, and to merge with and transform everyday life – become plebeian.

Rock and pop still seem to figure as a repository of raw power  in at least one place: the imagination of a number of  contemporary artists, where it serves as the non-art reservoir that revitalizes their practice and staves off decadence.

For Retromania I interviewed the British reenactment duo Iain Forsyth and Jane Pollard.

Their work includes restagings of rock gigs like the final Ziggy Stardust concerts, a Cramps gig at a mental asylum in California – Forsyth and Pollard were at pains to convey that they didn’t get inspiration from art but from music –  they got into reenactments simply because they wanted to create an art work that had the visceral excitement of indie rock gigs – for them the rock gig is something like the situation as it figures in Situationist theory: not a passive spectacle but participatory, an event. To amp that up they were drawn to reenact the most event-like events, such as Bowie’s final concerts as Ziggy Stardust. 

So why not  form their own band, if rock has the power that art doesn’t? Well interestingly they said that they felt the art world had less strictures than the music industry, which is where they earn their living, working for a record label.

Another British artist expressing similar feelings is  Elizabeth Price -- unlike Forsyth and Pollard she’s a former musician, but now  she’s  artist whose video installations borrow from advertising and pop sources like the Shangri Las, an influence on her own band Talulah Gosh. This recent video work was a reaction against boredom with her own work in installation and sculpture – she told The Wire magazine, “I was interested in doing something that had a less academic and polite address” . Most modern art is “cool, measured, it’s outside of things... it has no relation with the actual social lives we exist in” whereas a rock gig is “loud, it’s hot, you can smell other people’s bodies,  you feel the bass in an embodied way... exactly the things that had been evacuated from art”



Price,  Pollard, Forsyth, are all old enough to have come up through indie rock when it was still shaped by punk’s recent memory and its inherited value system –  their idea of rock’s social power comes from a similar place to Frank Kogan’s or Greil Marcus’s or Bill Drummond’s. 

But it is noticeable that as the folk memory of punk  and of the mid-Sixties and rock’n’roll, has faded,  so too is that distrust of art that Marcus wrote about approvingly, that Drummond enacted, that Bangs took for granted...

Gradually there has been a growing resignation towards the very thing that Nik Cohn found intolerable – the division between industrialised chartpop, brainless if entertaining trash, and a separate zone of “fine music”, which is totally comfortable with seeing itself as art.

One index of this shift has been the rise in the last decade of the term “curator” within left-field rock, I write about this in Retromania, how activities like selecting a compilation, or booking a festival, are now described as curation – in the underground you also have what I’ve called the ETSY-ification of rock, a micro-culture of limited edition releases with handcrafted packages, elitist both by necessity and by choice -- music that lies somewhere between art and the artisanal.

And then less obscurantist but still very much aimed at a discerning minority there has been the rise of NPR rock.

Kogan complained about the PBS-ification of rock, but NPR has become a huge force in alternative music, they are actually a driver of sales, they have preview streams of major Pitchfork-type albums on their website.

One of the NPR stations in LA,  KCRW invented a programming template they called Morning Becomes Eclectic that has been super influential  –  the mix is alternative music, but not the noisy types --nearly always well produced, tasteful,  and yes eclectic, made by new breed of band who draw on a whole wide world of influences and also all across music history – so they are both cosmopolitan and they have a rich sense of the music as heritage -- --  the presenters of the shows speak with calm, almost hushed tones, like the news program hosts on other NPR sentences.

When I listen to it I feel vaguely catered for, precisely targeted as a demographic –– and there’s a discomfort, similar to the feeling I’d get at art-techno events in the late 90s. I missed the vibe of raves but mainly I would feel restless because the last place I want to be is where I’m surrounded by people who are just like me

I can take about 30 minutes of KCRW and then I turn to the pop stations, the banging brainless club music that rules the top 40 and then when I start getting Adorno-like feelings about that ... I turn to the classic rock stations, where you can get music that at its best seems to like fragments of a lost unity -- but only because it is old music, very old music in some cases.

But the most interesting music of today seems to totally comfortable with seeing itself as art and as minority interest – along with “curation” as a model for music-making,  there has been the rise of the concept-musician – not completely analogous to the conceptual artist, but there are certainly similarities -  musicians like James Ferraro, Onehotrix Point Never, John Maus, artists on the Ghost Box label, invariably there’s a spiel accompanying each new release -- framing of the project is increasingly essential --  you’ll even get  a group now and then  that actually has a manifesto --  Prince Rama, a female duo who have this concept “ghost modernism” and composed a text entitled The Now Age: Meditations on Sound and the Architecture of Utopia

Another figure getting a lot of attention at the moment is Julia Holter,  a CalArts raduate, whose electronic pop on albums like Tragedy and Ekstasis is informed by her interest in Greek tragedy and Medieval icons. Tragedy included a song called “Try to Make Yourself a Work of Art”  while on her website she used to offer something she called HANDMADE THING, a CD-R and a sculpture for 25 dollars.

Increasingly with these zones of music, where micro-genres terms float by fleetingly such as chillwave and witch house – I can’t help thinking of  Tom Wolfe’s The Painted Word... there’s a sense that we’re heading into a place where the music can’t actually be enjoyed or even felt without the intervention of a concept.  A certain kind of music-journalist and blogger loves this kind of thing, it gives them something to riff on and riff off  - read some of the blogs and webzines that specialize in this area of music, like Tiny Mix Tapes and it reads a lot like prime period  October.

Sometimes I’m one of those music journalist / bloggers and other times I feel a disquiet about where all this is going....

It’s an easy thing to fall into a  mutual admiration mirror image syndrome --the new breed of concept musicians think like critics, you see  --  Amanda Brown, who records as LA Vampires told me, "when I make music, I'm only interested in thematics. I think, "What do I want to present? I'm trying to make a certain statement. And that takes it out of emotionality and more into a cerebral place. 'Meaningful' becomes more of an adjective than 'soulful'. "   Brown actually describes herself as "not a musician" but an "audio artist".

This sensibility is all the more striking because it’s emerged out of indie rock culture, which always leaned towards a shambolic lo-fi slacker aesthetic -- towards a vague populism, or at least “beautiful loser”-ism.  

But the self-image of the audio artist appeals I think for a number of reasons. Doing this kind of music is almost never a livelihood these days – even putting out a large number of limited edition releases per year doesn’t generate much revenue

But the work gets a much wider listenership and critical and blog response through its being illegally shared and downloaded. So the prestige of being taken extremely seriously and widely talked about in some way compensates for the fact that is not a means of making a living. 

Certain albums, like James Ferraro’s recent album Far Side Virtuality get discussed and talked about and regarded as momentous in a way that far out-stripped the record’s actual sales.  Circulating through the blogosphere, it becomes almost like a virtual exhibition – something everyone has to have heard, in the same way that Christian Marclay’s The Clock has to be seen, if just for an hour or two, so you can participate in the cultural conversation. 

But Marclay, operating properly in the art world, has actually monetized his art. The concept musicians I’m talking about are a long way from being able to do that – and at the same time, these artists have largely opted out of the traditional routes for rock bands to claw their way towards financial viability, the gig circuit.

The logic that you should expand your audience, that you should move from semipopular to real popularity, was once an ethical imperative, especially in the years following punk when the consequentiality of rock was restored, the sense that it had the power to change the world

That logic of out-reach was what seemed to push Sonic Youth,  against their bohemian nature and their innate artiness, towards signing with Geffen - getting themselves onto MTV and playing bigger venues and rock festivals.

The modern day equivalents to Sonic Youth – these concept musicians and audio artists --seem  reconciled to the idea of semi-popularity, culthood.  

All those hang-ups about art have faded away.  

The  'n’roll  has long gone, and the rock is evaporating pretty fast too.  

Saturday, July 6, 2019

1979, in 2005: Green interviewed about the early days of Scritti, and some later days too

This is the full transcript of an interview with Green from 2005, originally done for an Uncut feature pegged around the release of Early, the CD reissue of the three long unavailable DIY-era EPs. For a while this transcript was up on the Rip It Up website, until the guy who created it and maintained decided to disappear, taking the construction with him. A shorter and tidied-up version of the Q/A is in Totally Wired, but here is the rambling and ragged entirety of our chat.

The conversation  took place just in time for me to squeeze a few last minute quotes into the book before it finally went to press. Originally, I had not attempted to interview Green for Rip It Up because A/ I felt certain he would not wish to talk about a period of musical activity he had so loudly disowned and derided, and B/ there is so much Green interview material available on the web and in old music papers (he’s always been very good at talking, and copious in his talk) that it seemed simply unnecessary. 

During the phone call (me in NY, he in Dalston) I was surprised by A/ how happy he now seemed to discuss that period and by how fond he seemed of that time, despite still professing at regular intervals during the conversation to find the pre-pop era Scrit sound acutely embarrassing. And B/ how thorough  his recollections were of the period, despite his insistence at regular intervals that he had a terrible memory and had trained himself to forget stuff. Finally, I was also struck by how charming he was.  An earlier encounter circa 1988’s Provision had not been as enjoyable, but the only echo of his supercilious manner on that day in our second encounter was his occasional tic of saying “dyaknowwhatimean?” with just a tinge of donnish snappishness to it. 

Another nice thing about the interview was the discovery that nothing I’d written on Scritti in Rip It Up turned out to be wildly off-base, either factually or interpretatively.

I am told Green is currently working on a memoir for Faber & Faber. Look forward to that, although given that it's now 13 years since his last album White Bread Black Beer - which is a longer gap than even the yawning chasm of time between Provision (1988) and Anomie and Bonhomie (1999) I'm not counting on its arrival any time soon. 


^^^^^^^^^^^^^



First Scritsong I ever heard, courtesy of Peel.

S: I was struck by the coinage in the sleevenote you did for Early, talking about how listening to those early EPs for the first time in ages, they struck you as a bit “winceworthy”!

G. I assumed it was already in the dictionary. Maybe not!

S. “Cringeworthy”, maybe--I’m not sure about “winceworthy”! Is that really still how you feel? And is it the sound of the records that make you cringe or knowing what your mindset was when you made them?

G:  Well, all the music I’ve ever made makes me feel uncomfortable to listen to, and I would go to some lengths to avoid having to hear it if I could. Fortunately, nowadays I don’t have to go to terribly tortuous lengths to avoid hearing it. I hadn’t listened to the early Scritti music since it was made. It sounded awkward, a bit gauche. But then, like I say, I think that about everything I’ve ever done.

S. So the obvious next question: why then agree to let it be reissued if it still embarrasses you?

G: I guess the same answer would hold:  I would be uncomfortable about any of my records being released, but it’s part of the business of making them. The final act of the process is them being consumed. I would guess it was a consequence of just a persistent interest from Geoff Travis at Rough Trade in reissuing that stuff. He’s been looking after me for a few years and… it would have been rude to say ‘no’!



S. I loved those records at the time, and they still sound good to me. But I can see why they might feel like a little pocket of time that feels really strange and is hard to recover or get back inside the mindset of. At the same time, I always heard a kind of pop sensibility thing in them, so when you went pop I…

G: You knew it was on the cards?

S. Well, actually--I wasn’t going to admit this--but in the summer of 1980 I think it must have been, I was all set to write you a letter, advising you that you should just go for it, do all-out pop music.

G: [archly] Well, what an insightful young man you were!

S: Well, I never wrote the letter, but it was songs like “Confidence” that made me hear that pop potential, I think. Also I’d probably picked up on people in the music papers talking about “pop” and the notion of infiltrating the mainstream. In hindsight, though, it’s really clear there’s this poppy melodic element even in the most fractured Scritti stuff--a Beatlesy/Bolan-y thread, as well as the obvious Robert Wyatt influence. 



G: There weren’t many people then who picked up on that, but it was certainly there, a history of listening to things other than the obvious. What were you doing at the time?

S: I was living at home in a small town in Hertfordshire. I think I first heard “Bibbly-O-Tek”, it would have been on John Peel, and was immediately struck by it. Winding back though to your own hometown and early youth, I’ve read that you attempted to form a branch of the Young Communist League at your school. Today, that sounds like a fabulously hardcore thing to do, but presumably A/ in South Wales, where there’s miners’ unions and such, and B/ in the early Seventies, when some union leaders were Leninists, was it the case that being a communist was still on the spectrum of legitimate political opinion?

G: It wasn’t actually. No, the concise answer, and I can say this with some confidence, despite how appalling my memory is generally, is that to begin with there was just me and Niall Jinks the bass player. We formed a branch of the Young Communists and after our inaugural meeting, Niall was beaten up quite badly, somewhere near the school. That was the beginning of years of violence. I haven’t done interviews for a long time but I did one the other day, went out for a meal with these guys and they said ‘reminisce about the time’ and what came up was that there was an awful lot of violence. No, there weren’t communists around, and it was a peculiar thing to do.



S: But, you know, didn’t Arthur Scargill have a bust of Lenin in his office? And surely there were loads of Trotskyites and Maoists and the like on university campuses?

G: That was different, when I got to Leeds. There’d be Marxist summer schools at London universities, and you’d go and meet other young communists. That was an exciting time and you met some very interesting people. But that was once I got out of Wales really.

S: What kind of political background did you grow up in, in terms of your family’s views and values?

G: Right-wing Tory, really. Working class Tory.

S: So you being a Communist, this was a strident statement then?

G: It was. It got into the local newspaper, and Niall and I were named, and it didn’t go down at all well with the extended family. It heralded a beginning of a decline in my relationship with my parents.  I didn’t see them for years and years and years. Then I think they read in the NME that I’d got ill [in 1980] and through my sister, they proffered some help. But yeah, we fell out big time.

S: So what was the musical analogue of being a young Communist? I read this intriguing piece several years ago, about Scritti and the Desperate Bicycles, and this guy Richard Mason claimed he could detect a discernible influence from Martin Carthy in your guitar playing on “Skank Bloc Bologna”. He pinpointed it precisely to Carthy’s playing in Steeleye Span actually!. So after that I went out and found a load of Steeleye albums, and sure enough, on Please To See The King, tracks like “The Blacksmith”, you can hear the connection from Carthy’s guitar playing to your playing on “Skank.”  But I wondered, was there a correlation between being a Communist and loving traditional music? Folk as the people’s music, that sort of idea.



G:  Yes, there was. Definitely. At that point, at school, the twin things I was into it were Martin Carthy--his solo albums are really astonishing, if you ever get the chance to get hold of his early or middle period stuff, it’s quite fantastic. So there was an interest in traditional music. And then the other thing was Henry Cow.  I first heard Carthy and Henry Cow on John Peel. It was that predictable thing of being attracted by more challenging music. In Wales, for a while, we lived in a fairly remote bungalow, and I would tape record the Peel shows on a Saturday, and for want of anything else to do, I would listen to that tape every night or day until the following weekend. And the thing that stayed with you, I found, was the challenging stuff. The music you found most difficult on the Sunday, by the next weekend had become your favorite.  Does that make sense?

S: Totally. I think people forget now the state of cultural-and-sensory deprivation involved in growing up in a small town in the UK back in the early seventies. No internet, no video stores, no video games. There were only two or three TV channels and they were off during the afternoon and closed by about 11-30 at night. There was only one radio station that played pop music, and during the day time it was pretty much a wasteland, Radio One. So, if you lived in a small town, there was virtually nothing to do! Just books and records and the music papers.

G: Yes. Most extraordinary, growing up in South Wales at the time. Nowadays if I go back there to see friends, there are bands everywhere, at every bus stop and every garage, it’s like everybody’s in one. But there weren’t any when I was growing up there. I think we had Man and Budgie--those were the only two I could think of that had come out of Wales.  I didn’t really care for either. Also growing up in the new town that I most associate with being there-- although I lived all over different bits of South Wales-- this brand new town, Cwmbran.  We lived at the end of a cul-de-sac, and beyond that there were the hills--or ‘mountains’, as we called them, and the other way there was just acres of estates leading to a town centre where nothing much happened. It was pretty peculiar. One of the consequences of being a new town, though, was that there was a fairly broad mix of people at school. New towns were places people used to relocate to. That’s what Niall, the bass player in Scritti, had done. He came from Kent, so he was the most exotic thing I could imagine, just ‘cos he came from Kent!

S: So you became fast friends at school. What was Niall like? Very political?

G: Yeah, his parents were CP people. Or at least his dad was.

S: See, it’s things like that that have given me this idea that being a Communist wasn’t that unusual in those days. For instance,  Richard Kirk’s parents were communists, he told me he had a young communist badge! But because growing up in Sheffield, hard-line socialist politics was normal, everyday, a bit mundane--he described going to the Young Communist League events as almost like going to Sunday school--he reacted against it and got into Dada.

G:  Well, I didn’t ever have that because it wasn’t my personal home experience. Also, there’s was nothing about the sense of [Communism] that I got from Niall that wasn’t wholly comfortable about it sitting alongside surrealism and whatever.

S: And of course, the Surrealists, they were all communists, weren’t they? Most of them.

G: I didn’t feel at any point at that point that there was any impediment to the imagination involved in undertaking the business of learning about Marxism. I was already primed, and possibly not surprisingly, by the experience of growing up in South Wales, which was pretty harsh. So it wouldn’t be stretching a point too far to say that a sense of inequality was formed pretty early on, and supported by all the evidence around, both domestically and in the broader community around me.

S:  Henry Cow, they were a bit Marxist, right? And part of a whole Euro-rock movement, Rock In Opposition, kind of dissident left-wing prog-rock bands?

G:  I didn’t know much about that. I think I came to Henry Cow through… when I was at school, I was quite precociously interested in pop music, and I’d gone to the Reading Festival when I was [really young]. The top of the bill would have been The Faces, who I was pretty keen to see, but further down the bill was Robert Wyatt and Matching Mole. Have you ever heard them? Fantastic! 





It was really through that kind of thing that I got into Henry Cow. The Wyatt route.


                                          


S: Did you like Hatfield and The North?

G: I did like Hatfield. I got to know the people in Henry Cow a bit, because when I left home and went to college, I started promoting gigs for things like the Young Communists, and being a fan of Henry Cow I would ask them to do these gigs. And
Chris Cutler, the drummer, his father was Party. So Henry Cow were lefties basically. When I was at Leeds, they would kip on the floor of our place and play gigs. I can remember when we did the first Scritti single and had stamped all the labels by hand on the kitchen table of the squat in Camden, and we put the squat’s address on them. And almost by return of post, it seemed, the very day after sending it out, Chris Cutler send his copy back to us in disgust. He told us we should leave making music to--

S: Real musicians?!

G: Basically! Which I thought quite staggering.

S: Cutler didn’t really get that whole do-it-yourself, emancipatory amateurism side to punk, did he?

G: No.  I can remember arguing about it when punk started--we were at Leeds then-- and Henry Cow came up to Leeds, and I was like, ‘Jesus Christ, this is just the fucking bomb,’ and Cutler was like, ‘this is  appalling rubbish!’. So that was the end of that really! I did see Fred Frith quite a few times, though. He was living in New York during the late seventies and beginning of the early eighties. We went to places like the Mudd Club and saw Bambaataa gigs and so forth.  Frith’s father was the headmaster of a school in York and Henry Cow used to rehearse there. Not during school time, but when it was the summer holidays. And we were invited along to their rehearsals, which was an incredible privilege. I was very excited. They were fantastic, I thought, Henry Cow. I don’t think many people remember them now.

S: They were very….

G: Scary!

S: Yeah, and there was a sense of rigour about what they did, of thinking hard not just about the music but about political issues. In the rather slack context of the mid-Seventies, that must have been quite bracing. 

G: Yeah, it was. Bracing’s a good word. It was astringent. Frightening at times, and difficult. That was what attracted me at the time, in the beginning--the difficulty.



S:  Was there a similar attraction about going to Leeds Polytechnic to study art? The Poly was quite radical, right? A lot of conceptual art, critically-driven and theoretically informed art, video and performance stuff?

G: I’d got interested in conceptual art when I was at school, just reading those stupid Thames & Hudson books about contemporary art. When I went to look at art colleges, Leeds was the most-- for want of a better word -radical. Of course, it wasn’t really remotely radical, but at the age I was then it was quite appealing to wander round the art college, where people were doing things like shooting budgerigars with air rifles for their degree show. I went up there when that year’s degree show was on. There was one room where a chap was making himself vomit, and the next room someone was shooting budgerigars. It was fantastic!



S:  So was the Poly’s Fine Art department more radical than Leeds University’s art faculty?

G: It was. Leeds University’s art department was where the Gang of Four and the Mekons were. When I started my work at college--or my lack of work, depending on how you look at it--I stopped painting and started writing. So they were going to throw me out, this was broached fairly frequently. But somebody at the Poly had the good idea of letting the University people read what I was writing. So Tim Clark was roped in to adjudicate as to whether I was writing just complete gibberish and bullshit to get away with it, or whether I had anything sensible to say. Anyway, he helped me stay there. But by that point, I’d started a sort of counter-curriculum.  I had got in with some members of the Art & Language group, and I’d organized visiting lectures. So I’d get people to come to Leeds Poly and lecture. It got very, very popular.  People like Patrick Nuttgens [the first Director of Leeds Polytechnic], who was the head of the whole thing, ended up at the last few events we did. It got very politicized and interesting. I was encouraging all these lecturers and artists from Art and Language to come and basically say what was going on in our faculty was a crock of shit and that everybody was wasting their time!



S: So you were a troublemaker!

G: It was good fun. We did an awful lot of reading. Drinking and listening to music and arguing, all the stuff I continued to enjoy for the early Scritti thing.

S:  When you switched from painting to writing, was this based in the belief that ‘before I create anything as an artist, it’s imperative that first I have to work out what is actually valid’? Have a really good hard think, before actually picking up a paintbrush?

G:  I think that’s fair. It sounds completely ludicrous now! Or does it? It was a conclusion that was fairly easy to come to, though. I mean, you know what British art colleges were like, right? I’m sure they’re even worse now. All the clichés are true--you’ve got the randy old lecturer who’s got scant knowledge about art really…



S:  I didn’t go to art college but one of my friends did, and at her place, there was a randy old bohemian lecturer with one of those scarves round his neck, and all he did was nudes, and he was a lecherous old sod, always going out with the models, or with female students.

G: I don’t think such niceties were needed, you didn’t have to feign an interest in the life study to start pawing and groping young girls! There is a whole other bunch of interesting things I could tell you about the experiences of art colleges generally, and drugs officers, and policemen, and art lecturers, and weird goings on. But going back to your question, I did think… well you get there and all these kids are basically left to their own devices to get on with this god-awful stuff that they haven’t spent any time really thinking about. They haven’t considered why it is that they’re painting in the manner of x, y or z. And if you tried to have an informed discussion with any of them, you were on a hiding to nothing. I just thought ‘this is fucking nuts! Somebody has to be asking some questions about what it means to be doing this, what it means to be in this kind of institution, in this country, at this time! I was like, ‘Hello? Hello?! Is anybody here thinking about this stuff at al?!?!. So that’s why I stopped painting and started writing.

S:  You met Tom Morley at this time?

G: Yes, he was at college too.

S: Did he always have the dreadlocks?

G: He didn’t have the dreadlocks until we squatted in Camden. His hair was that kind of hair. He had a white ‘fro, when I first met him.




S:  Marc Almond and Frank Tovey--Fad Gadget--were both at Leeds Poly, doing art, right? Did you know them?

G: Yes,  Marc and Frank, they were both at Leeds. But I was a bit sniffy…

S: Cos they were into performance art?

G:  Oh I don’t know, I’d had my moments of performance! I did a…oh blimey! I did some COMPLETELY pretentious piece when I first got there. It was called something like ‘Fox Logic’, and it was about the deaths of Wittengenstein and Kimber. William Kimber was a Morris dancer who died in Oxford the same day that Wittgenstein died. [William Kimber aka ‘Merry’ Kimber, 1872–1961, was the concertina-player of the Headington Quarry Morris Dancers and the prime instigator of the Morris Dance revival. His meeting with Cecil Sharp in 1899 was a trigger for Sharp’s embarking on collecting traditional songs, leading to the formation in 1911 of the English Folk Dance Society].  So it was just all this stuff about the First World War, English traditional things, men, villagers dying, patterns, abstraction, language… It was a massive wank, really! That was my brief bit of performance. And I enjoyed it for a while. But I guess I was more snooty and sniffy about people’s musical interests than I was anything else really.




Said to be Marc Almond's degree show work at Leeds Poly, or something like that. Via Jon Dale. 

S: You’ve spoken before about the revelatory, transformative moment of going to your first punk gig and going into the venue as one person and coming out again afterwards completely changed, a different person. Was that the Anarchy Tour hitting Leeds, the Pistols, the Heartbreakers?

G: It was the first punk tour--The Clash, The Pistols, The Damned, and The Heartbreakers. Was that Anarchy? Or White Riot? No, it was the Anarchy tour, and maybe the third date on that. They’d been prohibited from playing in Nottingham the night before.  You think back, and occasionally you’re reminded that you’ve made these claims about these Damascene moments in your life. But I wouldn’t mind still describing that gig like that, in those very strong, revelatory, life-changing, clichéd terms. It was like that. I was fucking astonished.



S: Previous to seeing the punk bands, had you been on a more musically proficient Henry Cow trip, learning your chops and all that? Had you even played music at all?

G: What I’d really learned to play by then was some traditional folk songs. Niall could play the fiddle and he knew a bunch of Morris tunes. I could play a couple of jigs and reels fairly badly! We were listening to the Henry Cows, and things like Miles Davis by that point too. Whatever else we could get our hands on that was upsetting! We weren’t really playing seriously.




S:  After the Anarchy show, did you decide to form a band immediately?

G: I think so, I can’t really remember exactly. I’ve got a terrible memory because I’ve trained my memory to be ruthlessly  poor--cos I’m best served that way! All memories are bad, really. Memories of good things are bad, because they’ve gone, and memories of bad things are bad because they were bad things. I don’t like remembering anything, and I’ve become really good at that. Also, I don’t really have any sense of time--I don’t feel the difference between things that happened last week, or three months ago, which gets me in all sorts of trouble. What were we talking about?

S: The initial forming of Scritti.

G: I don’t remember that, but I remember I was the one who persuaded Tom and Niall to blow the last of their grant on a drum kit and a bass guitar, and start learning to play them. That’s what we did. We played one gig in Leeds as The Against. We supported this one other punk band in Leeds at the time, SOS.



S: Did you apply the same sort of thing you’d done with your art work--thinking very hard about it--to the initial conceptualization of Scritti, before actually making the music? Or was it more instinctive and spontaneous?

G: There wasn’t a simple agenda, but there would have been lots of thinking about it. Because that was a lot of the pleasure. It’s just a pleasurable thing to do--to sit around talking and thinking about things. We were possibly much better at that than we were at making music. There were lots of different forces at play, all these seamlessly contiguous areas of interest: music’s relationship with language, which was a bit like art’s relationship with language, and there was the whole political dimension of the linguistic turn in philosophy--that point when language became a subject of philosophy. The political dimensions of the turn towards language interested me a lot. Then there would have been music and its role in identity formation. That was something all three of us had personal experience of--how important music had been growing up, to who we were. Music’s power, latent and transforming. Then there was a lot of that Gramscian talk at that time too, talking about culture and ideology in a more straightforward Marxist-y way. And then there was the whole punk thing about control of production and distribution, getting up and doing-it-yourself. So these were all separate but seamlessly contiguous areas.



S: So you’d be exploring all these different issues, grappling with all these overlapping theories, simultaneous with the more practical stuff, like learning how to use an amplifier, or how to string your guitar?

G: I paid no attention to how set up an amp! Partly because we were anti-rock in a way. Rock was too solid, too strong, and too sure a sound. All its mannerism and gestures and conventions were strong, solid, and sure, and we wanted a music that’s wasn’t strong, solid, and sure, because we weren’t strong, solid or sure. And I wouldn’t have known how to make a music that was strong solid or sure. It wasn’t until I started supporting the Gang of Four,  and Andy Gill would tell us, ‘this is how you get distortion on an amplifier, this is how loud they can go’…  So it was a blend of the via negativa and being a bit gormless about it, to be honest!




S: So when did Scritti move down from London to the Camden squat? Would that have been early ’78?

G:  I would think it would have been around then. We did those first tracks [the ‘Skank Bloc Bologna’ three-track single] at Spaceward Studio in Cambridge, and whether we went to Cambridge from Leeds or from London, I can’t remember, but I’d think it would have been from London. So maybe we were in the squat by ‘78.

S: Had you chucked in your art degree?

G: I completed it. I got a 2.1.

S: So they decided text was valid then, as artistic practice!

G: That’s all my degree show was--an awful lot of writing. But it got the thumbs-up from various people. People that my lecturers thought possibly knew what they were talking about! And I was told I didn’t get a first because I’d never attended any of their lectures, which is absolutely true. I did finish the art course and was thoroughly fed up with the whole business. As I remain to this day--perfectly appalled by Brit Art and everything that’s come in its wake.

S:  Did you ever do any painting as such?

G: Yeah, I could paint. Occasionally I draw. Get the crayons out. It’s a very pleasurable thing to do.






S: What was Camden like in those days? A bit grotty?

G: It was pretty grotty. The squat was in a little terrace. Some girls from art college had gone down and squatted the year before and tipped us off about this place. When the old lady moved out… Well, we went and knocked on her door, and said, ‘Are you going to be moving soon? We’re going to squat your place after you’ve gone.’ So she was complicit with us squatting this place, and they tried to get us out but they couldn’t. But the Carol Street squat didn’t have a bathroom. It was pretty rudimentary. The band Skrewdriver lived a few doors down, in our street. We were young communists and punks and there was an awful lot of violence. There was violence on an almost weekly basis. Like, every time you went to see a gig… We’d travel in fairly large groups, of five or six… and we’d walk, say, all the way to Stoke Newington to the Pegasus to see some band, and then walking back at whatever time of the night you’d be attacked. You’d be attacked on the London Underground, or you’d be attacked if you were out selling Challenge, the young communist paper. I was doing some part time work at the Communist Party headquarters in King Street in Covent Garden, and there were letter bombs while I was there. There had been a lot of violence in Leeds before, a lot of people I knew had been attacked. And some of my friends in Camden [were attacked], like Matthew Kay, who worked with Scritti [as organizer/manager], and people who ended up working at Rough Trade--all of this was through a Communist thing. So I remember violence, a great deal of violence. But also a lot of fantastic fun, which came from that business of putting your home address on your record sleeves, which meant that you did get the disaffected public schoolboys and French hippies and Italian Eurocommunists turning up. They would bang on your door. It was open house, and we’d be going out to gigs most nights, and you’d come back and you never knew who would be there, and you’d stay up all hours, talking, about whatever books were of interest or someone had maybe bought a new pre-release dub thing. It was just pretty good. Good times!”



                     film actually made by Scritti Politti for the BBC program Grapevine,  broadcast 1980 explaining how to make your own record - with lots of view of Carol Street and the squat, as well as Scritti in the studio, Scritti at the record pressing plant, etc

S: There’s a load of commune-style bands in rock history--Jefferson Airplane, Faust, Amon Duul--bands that lived together in squats or big houses. But Scritti is unique, I think, is being a collective that involved a large number of non-musicians who were on an equal basis with the musicians. How large did Scritti actually get?

G: We used to have meetings at the house--I don’t know if we called ourselves a collective, we called ourselves something--and these meetings were attended by people who were going to be in their own groups, or they were fans, or just friends. And maybe of an evening, 20 people or so would attend. Some of whom went on to make their own records.



S: Like this guy Simon Emmerson, who went on to be Simon Booth of Weekend and Working Week, right?

G: Simon was one of them. And there were people like the Janet and Johns, and Methodishca Tune. Most of these people just made one or two singles. One of the key figures at the time was a guy called Bob Scotland, who was one of our closest friends, and who ended up driving a van for Rough Trade and having his own band. He was a working class Glaswegian communist, and an incredibly bright guy. He’s now some fantastic Oxbridge don specializing in spores, molds and fungus! For a lot of people [early Scritti] was an exciting and fascinating phase, for two or three years.

S: These people who actually didn’t write Scritti’s songs or play instruments, did they still actively contribute, in terms of ideas and thinking out what the band was about?

G: Oh yeah. Around the time of changing [from Mark 1 Scritti to the pop Scritti], there was a fairly big aesthetic shift that went on. I think it was partly precipitated by my ill health, on a Gang of Four tour and various other things. I went back to Wales, and I would have never thought of just announcing that I now wanted to make a different kind of music. So I sat down for months and months and months and wrote screeds of justification. And I started listening to black music that I’d heard before but never listened to before. But yes [with the writing of the screeds of notes],  there was that sense of having to have it understood and approved and thought-through. I have to stress that that was also a very pleasurable thing to do.






S: Well, flashing back to the early days again, tell me about ‘Skank Bloc Bologna’. Was that inspired by what was going on in Italy in 1977?

G:   I’d read a book, Red Bologna, about the time I wrote that song. I guess if I had to draw the essence of the song out of thin air really quickly-- at the time I’m sure I would have spoken with more eloquence or at least more length--I can remember there was this idea of the “bloc”, the “historical bloc”, coming from Gramsci‘s idea of hegemony. And Bologna at that time was a city in communist control, and I was interested in certain ideas of Eurocommunism. As for the skanking bit, that was what just filled our house twenty four hours a day--nonstop dub and lover’s rock, really. It was just beautiful.



S: In Bologna, though, the Communist mayor was the one who actually tried to suppress the more radical Il Movimento people, who in 1977 were rioting in this really carnivalesque fashion, taking over the city center.   Was ‘Skank Bloc Bologna’ inspired by those people, the radicals who were even more left-wing than the establishment Communist Party? Or were you just struck by the fact that it was possible to have a whole city in Northern Italy that was Communist controlled?

G: To be honest, I can’t really remember… I would have been inspired by the book Red Bologna, which wasn’t uncritical of what was going on. And at that time we were going to meetings where various young European communists were talking, and there were people in Italy who were setting up radio stations--they were nominally communists but they were pretty wild, dyaknowwhatImean?

S: Oh, you mean Radio Alice, il Movimento’s pirate radio station.

G: Yes, Radio Alice--things like that. I’d forgotten about that.




S: So that’s what you’re talking about when you’re singing in “Skank” about how the Magnificent Six--the Scritti collective--are busy working on developing some reasons for political hope--“a Euro vision and a skanking scope”?

G: Yes, yes, yes. Please don’t remind me of any more lyrics! It might lead to me dying of embarrassment.


S: Are you really embarrassed by them? See, what I like about those lyrics is… and this may not be what you were trying to do at all, but there was a lot of debates going on at that time but how to do the politics-in-pop thing effectively. So you had Tom Robinson with his straightforward messages, which people soon decided was pointless, just preaching to the converted. And then the step beyond TRB was Gang of Four, doing their songs that were very schematic and diagrammatic, almost case studies in false consciousness, diagrams of relationships of conditioning and exploitation. And then your songwriting in the early Scritti is the next step beyond that: it’s more like a  kaleidoscope that switches back and forth, almost on a line by line basis, from very mundane details of every day life to that sort of deep, abstract structure, delineating the contours of the absolute bedrock conditions of political reality, what shapes your deepest beliefs about how reality has to be. So one line you’re singing about people doing shitty jobs in supermarkets, or prosaic stuff to do with bailiffs and rents, and the next line it’s more like something out of Gramsci, the constraints on your consciousness.  Was that what you were trying to do?

G: Absolutely. That’s pretty spot on I would think. And it continues to be. The songs I’m working on at the moment --God, songs I’ve been working on “at the moment”, more like songs that I’ve  been working for the last God knows how many years--that continues to be how I write.

S: So it’s not the approach then, it’s the specific lyrics you wrote that make you wince!

G: Yes, it’s any specific instance of any of it! But you’re right in your analysis.


S: With the Desperate Bicycles, did you actually like their music or was it more the do-it-yourself credo that inspired you?

G: I loved their music. I really did, and we got to know them, and they were amongst the people who would come round to the house and we would talk about things. They were very similarly-minded. There was a sense of community amongst some bands at the time, and around Rough Trade, with bands like the Raincoats, and lots of others. A sense of community, and a shared feeling that….  the unexamined pop life wasn’t worth living. Let’s put it that way!


S: So Rough Trade was a really cool milieu then.

G: I don’t think we thought of ourselves as ‘cool’. I thought Geoff  was cool.

S: Well I didn’t mean ‘cool’ in that sense but more like, a fertile place to be.

G: Oh definitely. For me it was the spot. And at time I was also promoting Young Communist gigs--we did one of the first Fall gigs in London, with John Cooper Clarke.  I even put on Sham 69. Sham 69 and Aswad on a bill together at Highbury! And these things were always done with Rough Trade’s active support. Unofficially. But Rough Trade would give us all the stuff to make the show more appealing. If you needed to borrow any record decks, or if you wanted to sell badges or singles at the gig and make a bit of money on that, Geoff would help out with that. I’m not sure one had any gauge of how remarkable that was at the time, because working with Rough Trade was our only experience of what a record label was like. It wasn’t until later that I discovered how anomalous that was.





Despite the title given this YouTube clip by some German Stiff Little Fingers fan most likely, this is actually the South Bank Show dedicated to Rough Trade and postpunk DIY culture, from 1979.

S: It does seem more and more remarkable, as time goes by. The spirit surrounding Rough Trade and a few other likeminded labels. Also, the degree of hopefulness involved, and the confidence that it all made a difference, doing these things, and doing them in this particular ethically-minded way. Rough Trade was really ambitious about wanting to create a whole alternative culture, with independent distribution, independent retail, independent media even. I think they were  planning to start a magazine at one point, although when that finally came to be some years later it was more like a trade paper, serving the Cartel, the independent label scene. The Catalogue, it was called. But originally it was an alternative culture type magazine they envisaged.

G:  There was certainly a great deal of hope. Yes.



S:  In the Rough Trade milieu, did you have much interaction with Mayo Thompson?

G: Yeah Mayo… he was doubly interesting because he’d been in Art & Language and The Red Crayola. And I didn’t hear the Red Crayola until I met him and he played me the old stuff and it knocked me out, I thought they were fantastic.





Scritti toured Europe with the Crayola and I used to go and spend time with Mayo and his wife in their cottage. He went to live in Germany. Yeah, he was a cool cat. Did you meet him?

S: I interviewed him on the phone because of the postpunk book. He’s involved in an art gallery now, and still does music.  

G: He was an assistant to Rauschenberg, wasn’t he?

S: I didn’t know that.  He’s got an interesting style of talk--it was hard to do the interview because he spoke very very fast and quite quietly, he’s very soft spoken and rapid in his speech. Transcription was a nightmare, but even hearing him while doing the interview was tough. But from what I could pick up, he’s got this interesting manner of talk--quite tough-minded. I think he came from a military background, so there’s a kind of soldier-like discipline combined with bone-dry humour, and of course the Art & Language hallmark, this penetrating rigour of thought.

G: There was an interesting crossover between the Art & Language mob and other groups on the Left, whose language became so exquisitely wrought, dense, tortured. A lot of the later writings by Art & Language, it’s absolutely impenetrable, but it’s a fascinating style. I recommend their old publications to anyone who wants to see an interesting mixture of the splenetic and the rigorous.  





S: So the official live debut of Scritti, at Acklam Hall, late 1978, you only had four songs written at that stage, and had to repeat the entire set, to please the punters?

G: Maybe it was three, it might have been four. We just played them twice. No problem.

S: Because it was rapturously received?

G: Yeah, they liked it a lot! Which was good, I should commend that to people more often. Because by the second time you play something, it’s a little familiar already. Hahahaha! It went down very well. It was terrifying. And that was already the beginning of the end, because of the nerves and panic attack stuff that later afflicted me.  I used to get terribly, terribly, terribly nervous. I mean, I was very nervous about doing this interview.

S: You don’t sound it! You sound totally assured.

G: It got too bad. It was a great shame really. But I just couldn’t fucking do the live performing.



Live bootleg tape of Scritti, with tantalising references to unrecorded songs, and a pirate radio interview with the band. You can hear the Electric Ballroom February 1980 concert part of this tape  here at the Bibbly-O-Tek fansite archive


S: But didn’t you do things like make songs up on the spot, at Scritti gigs?  Wouldn’t that have been even more nerve-wracking?

G: We did a lot of making stuff up on the spot. In some ways that was less nerve wracking. The idea came from a mixture of things.  I was never convinced that there was any simple correspondence between the formal aspects and the political (in its fuller sense) dimensions. But I did get less interested in chords and structures for a while. But making stuff up, again, was pleasurable. In all that we’ve talked about, the theory and the practice,  there’s a central hedonistic streak in it all. It was pleasurable to struggle to make these things up on stage, not always successfully. But it was all nerve-wracking, generally.



S: In the sequence of the recordings, did you do the Peel Sessions EP before 4 A Sides?

G:  I’ve no idea what the chronology of any of that was I‘m afraid.

S: Because you were talking about the nervous strain, and that Peel Sessions EP, sounds particularly affected by that. I read somewhere, an interview you did a few years later, during the pop phase, maybe 1982, and you say something like “I listen back to the Peel EP and I can’t understand that record, it feels like a really ill record.” And that’s what the EP sounds like--almost like the music is shaking itself apart. You get the sense of a group of people living on their edge of their nerves. There’s a vein of paranoia in the lyrics of songs like “Scritlocks Door”, or elsewhere, there’s this strong current of despair, like with “Hegemony”, where you can’t see any way out of hegemony’s mindlock on your consciousness.

G: Yes, that’s all true. I was not well physically. There was that whole thing of making a music that was trying to be expressive of the stresses of being--this’ll sound wanky--the stresses of being spoken by the language that we were being spoken by, dyaknowwhatimean? But at the time, we were trying to be analytical of it, look inside it. And those were hard things to pull together. I guess you’re right--there was a bit of despair and paranoia. But there might even have been some pleasure in the despair.
That’s a dangerous thing to say, and a whole other--

S:  No, I know exactly what you mean--how there’s a certain buzz to contemplating this totally bleak, apocalyptic, ‘no way out’, scenario, a reveling in it…

G: Except it can tip over into making you properly depressed and completely inert and deeply unwell and unhappy. But I didn’t have too much of that. And at that time there was funk and R&B to help me. And then later hip hop. But at that point, the tail end of disco, I was getting fed up with the whole indie thing anyway. There was a concurrence between getting a bit fed up when indie became aware of itself and became something definable and something with its own set of [conventions] and becoming pretty disinterested it. Then, at this period at the tail end of disco and the beginning of hip hop, I woke up to funk and R&B. Which I’d not grown up with.  I’d grown up in South Wales with a strictly whitebread kind of  diet. It might have been left of center and hugely influenced by black music, but I didn’t know that, I didn’t know where the black music was in Henry Cow.  I didn’t know where the black music was in anything.  I hadn’t found the funk. So that was a whole adventure, discovering how all these questions of music and identity and the body and power were reinscribed in the whole black popular music and dance culture. That was a whole other way of thinking and feeling about these things.




S: You can sense this stuff coming through towards the end of the do-it-yourself era Scritti, you can hear it in 4 A Sides, there’s a kind of funk element to tracks like “P.A.s” and “Bibbly-O-Tek”.

G: I suppose so, although it’s a completely calamitously inept dabbling in that area. That was interesting from a musical perspective, the way that you can actually learn to listen, you can learn to understand the funk--which was a very, very pleasurable thing to do. In those days, I recognized some of the surface features of it without grasping much of what was going on inside it, dyaknowwhatimean?
                                          
S:  ‘OPEC-Immac’ is one of my favorite songs on Peel Sessions, it’s got a really odd structure to it, it’s Scritti music reaching this point of near-disintegration, but still retains a lot of the melodic beauty, this sort of melodic eerieness that’s really haunting. The lyrics are very fractured too. Can you recall what that song was trying to ‘say’?

G: I can remember playing it live at the YMCA and Ian Penman playing saxophone on it, when we were supporting The Fall. What can I remember about it as a song? Well given that  I can only faintly recall a bit of it…

S: There’s this spoken word part, it’s only semi-audible, but you sound very fraught and insistent, like maybe you’re having a near-tearful argument with someone, desperately trying to get your point across, make yourself understood.

G: I think Niall was saying some of that, and so was I. Again, it was expressive of that whole thing about language and identity. But Scritti was also a group that was… we partied very hard. As they say nowadays! We were always pretty poorly. We were kind of cheese sandwich vegetarians for years. What does that account for? It’s a kind of scratching, collapsing, irritated, dissatisfied music.  I was listening to some music the other night, on 6 FM or whatever it’s called, BBC 6, their alternative rock station, and I was struck by all the new bands: there was no trepidation. I had no sense that these people were playing with anything that they were slightly frightened of--either in themselves, or in the music. No sense that they going anywhere where they weren’t sure where they would end up.



S: With so much of the music of that period, but especially Scritti, there is precisely what you’re talking about: a feeling of precariousness. There’s a real sense of anxiety, people grappling with these deep doubts and exorbitant hopes:  where do we go next after punk? How can we make our good intentions actually have any purchase on the world? That’s what I find so inspiring about that whole period. Possibly it was delusory, that shared feeling that music could have that degree of power. But it seemed like that for a lot of those bands, believing that it might have that power meant that it therefore became very important to work out exactly the best way of directing one’s energy. To locate the correct path, the righteous way forward, became a very urgent thing. 

G: I think you’ve put that very succinctly. Because of what was happening politically at the time. And also because of what had seeped out to us from academia--even those who hadn’t gone directly into higher education--there was a lot of intellectual stuff in the air.
And music became an interesting case in point for a lot of these ideas. We didn’t understand fully what was going on with Deleuze & Guattari or Lacan or Kristeva, but there was that stuff around. But there was also a whole running fight with the BNP.
And beyond those things there was just something we’d grown up with--the power of pop music. We all knew about that latent utopian possibility in the music, a transformative power, what would later be called ‘counter-hegemonic’. So there was a real sense of that potential in music and a real interest in talking about it. But most of all there was a lot of music, a lot of making music. Dyouknowwhatimean?

S: Well that comes through clearly--I mean, it’s obvious that underneath all the cerebration and deep thought, there is this pure musicality. If there was no musicality involved, no pleasure or beauty, it wouldn’t really be worth much at all. And there’s mystery too--the mystery of melodic beauty.  

G: Yes. And it was also a massively romantic project, I would have to say.




S: You mentioned Kristeva and all that stuff, and although I went to university, that kind of thing--Barthes, Foucault, et al--that was stuff I read in my spare time, for fun. My actual course was History. It’s really people like you, and some of the journalists on NME who quoted Barthes, who turned me onto this stuff. You have no idea… well probably you do actually, because people must have contacted you guys all the time at the squat, cos of the Scritti records--but that ‘Scritto’s Republic’ thing, the pages from the imaginary book, on the sleeve of Peel Sessions, that was like a window opening out onto a whole world for me. The whole idea discussed in those two pages-- language as a cage, the prison-house of consciousness, grammar structuring the reality you lived within… Language as a problem, rather than something transparent, a tool that you could use in a simple empowering way…  Well, being introduced to that idea was so interesting. You wrote that text, right? It’s a really eloquent piece of writing. Was that influenced by reading Althusser?

G: No, Althusser was some years before. I don’t know what I was reading at that point. Whatever cropped up. Whatever turned up at the squat when someone would say ‘have you heard of this person?’  A useful thing was Compendium, the bookstore in Camden. Compendium was a really important spot. Did you know it?

S:  I used to go there all the time, when I lived in London, I was really sad when it got closed down. It was full of pamphlets and fanzines, wasn’t it?

G: Yeah, mad stuff. You could go downstairs and root about, and spend hours in there.


S: Was Compendium the first place in the UK to have the early translations of the French post-structuralist theory?

G:  One of them. I’d started on that stuff in the university bookshops in Leeds, there were some good ones up there. Compendium was an important place for a lot of people, its name comes up often, talking to people since. To this day people would say how important it was. It was to us, anyway.

S: So in the ‘Scritto’s Republic’ text, it ends with this little Warwickshire folk rhyme, a “counting out rhyme”. “Vizzery, vazzery, vozery vem/Tizzery, tazzery, tozery tem/Hiram, Jiram, cockrem, spirem/Poplar, rollin, gem”. The sense-shredding power of folk-speech or something!.  Of course at the time it would never have occurred to me in a million years that you’d have been into traditional music! Did you do actually do research in English folk music?

G: I did. I actually did a lot of research into Welsh traditional things, at the national archives in Cardiff. This is many years before.  I was looking into a Welsh tradition called the Mari Lwyd, or the White Mare, which is when the skeleton of a horse is exhumed and taken round the houses at a certain time of year. Basically you had to join in with the people that came around. It was mixture of…. they were menacing, it was anarchic, and you entered into almost an MC battle. The people outside had to come up with a rhyme and you inside had to come up with a rhyme to match it. There was a sort of contest-cum-orgy. It sounded good to me!



Scritti, "P.A.s", 1979, said to be out-takes from the filming for the Grapevine DIY program Scritti did for BBC

S: On 4 A Sides, there’s one particularly beautiful piece of music, “P.A.s”. I love the sinuous melody, the sheer groove of the song. But lyrically that’s partly about fascism, right? The myth that it could never happen here, in the UK, land of moderation, whereas you’re saying, well, no, it could happen, all that’s needed is for the right circumstances of economic collapse and mass unemployment, and for “the language” to “shut down” like it did in Germany in 1933, and Italy in 1920?

G: That’s one that’s hard to remember. There’s the bit that I quoted in the Early CD sleevenotes, ‘til doledrums roll us into battle”. That song operates  exactly  as you  mentioned earlier--it takes  a line through what you would otherwise think of in sedimented terms, in spatial metaphors…  it cuts across from the basic structure [of political reality] to unconscious day-to-day political stuff. It’s a trawl, really…

S: So it goes from the bailiffs and the debts to resurgent fascism to--

G: Yeah, all that stuff. I think around about that time was when Geoff came in and bailed me out, as he has done on more than one occasion, and started giving me a wage. Or us a wage. It’s funny, cos there were no contracts in those days, it was all just…

S:  Trust.

G:  Trust, yes. It was like, ‘if you need some money to live, here’s some money to live’, and ‘when the record comes out, this is your half, this is our half’ I don’t know however it worked, but it worked. It was good.




SCRIT 3 -  a DIY booklet produced by Scritti Politti explaining how to make a record








               



S: You’ve talked a lot in the past about the Brighton gig in early 1980, supporting Gang of Four, and the nervous collapse. Was that the first time you suffered a crippling panic attack?

G: That was the first.

S: You thought you were dying.

G: Yeah. It was the whole ambulance with the sirens going to the hospital deal.

S: This was after the gig, right?

G: I think maybe I’d made it  through the gig on that occasion. We weren’t living too healthily… I think maybe if I’d known what was going on, I’d have gone for some help with the whole panic attack thing. Everything from the drinking to the speed to… It’s like, yipes, the very thought of it now makes me feel… weak!

S: Was there a sense  too in which you were also thinking too much, worrying too much? That all that--worrying about the right path to follow--made you ill? And you must have been reading tons and tons of books, constantly.

G: There’s something that certainly happens, and it happens to me--where the querying of the significance relatively of various things seems to contaminate your whole life, to a point where you might describe it as mental illness. I don’t think I’ve ever had it that bad, but there’s definitely a continuum. It’s nasty, when you do, on a few occasions, reach that point of finding minutiae overburdened with potential significance. D’you-know-what-I-mean?. I know what that’s like.


S: So  your family  rescued you.

G: They did a bit. They got me a place in Wales, to recuperate. I was never kind of deliriously bonkers, though.

S: Hahahahahahaha.

G: I possibly was actually! No, I certainly wasn’t, but I did go back to Wales and got it back together in the country, maaaan. Which is something I’ve had recourse to do at various other points.

S: Like in the Nineties?

G: Yeah, more of the same

S: So, you mentioned this earlier, but this postpunk legend turns out to be true---the story of Green going back to Wales to get well and writing a whole book in order to convince his band mates that it was ideologically correct for Scritti to go in a more poppy direction?

G: It wasn’t quite a book, but there was a lot of it.



S: I think the idea’s quite glorious. Heroic, even!

G: Somewhere I’ve probably got all those writings still. I’ve just moved boxes and boxes of writings from a place I had in Wales up to London.  I like to leave the boxes closed. But I took the risk of opening one of them and I pulled out a notebook, literally the topmost thing, and what I found was a four or five page account of my meeting Miles Davis. Going to his apartment. I’d forgotten completely I’d done this, but afterwards I’d gone back to wherever I was staying in New York at the time and I wrote the whole encounter down in great detail--what he was wearing, what we said, what we did, what we listened to. Absolutely fascinating.

S: Well, you should publish it somewhere

G: Nah. It’s possibly of interest to anyone interested in Miles, but it’s just a detailed diary entry about a day spent with Miles. But I don’t know what those other writings are like. I certainly wrote a lot in those years.



It has been argued by some that this song is not actually an anthem in celebration of DIY, but a critique of it - the line "we know what we're doing" is not saying 'we fracture our songs like this on purpose' but talking about how scratchy-collapsy had become codified, a new set of conventions: a contrived amateurism, a theatricalised naivete. In other words, Green was feeling trapped by the aestheticization of mess, bored by its predictability, and looking for a way out. 

S: In terms of the notes you wrote to convert the band, and where your thinking was changing at this time, was one of the ideas this post-structuralist, Derridean idea that problematized the very notion of the margin? And you realizing that postpunk in general, and Scritti in particular, was based around this obsolete opposition of margin versus center, with the marginal being celebrated as a zone of  authenticity and purity beyond the conventional forms of the mainstream?

G: Well, I didn’t believe in authenticity or purity, and part of the whole thing was to militate against uncritical ideas of expressivity, authenticity, identity, the ‘real’ you, the ‘real’ voice.  I didn’t buy into any of that and part of the project was to draw attention to that. Part of  going to New York and working with Arif Mardin, that was again uppermost in my mind, was of being true to an idea of inauthenticity. So when you’re talking about Derrida, do you mean ‘the frame’?

S: No--and here I’m going by my memories of your interviews in the music press at the time--I got the impression that you felt independent label music had become obsessively marginal, in the sense of willfully difficult and contrivedly unconventional. So the shift between the first three EPs and ‘The ‘Sweetest Girl’/  Songs to Remember was a shift from self-conscious marginality to a deconstructionist pop music. And whether Scritti ever subscribed to ideas of authenticity or marginality or purity, certainly a lot of the groups you’d have been associated with originally--your postpunk fellow-travellers like PiL and Pop Group--they were totally bound-up with those notions.

G: But you know, the metaphor of the margin implies a centre and the centre is conservatively defined, and so by extension the margins are conservative margins. There are these edges, but they are very conservatively determined. So I didn’t really like marginality with a big M, it’s something I got more mistrustful of.



S: Was there a point at which you actually handed in your Communist Party card?

G: Right from the beginning, I was active in the Young Communists at the same time as I was having trouble with the whole idea of the scientific status of the science of history that Marxism purported to be. But that didn’t seem to mean that I had to leave the party. I presumed that those conversations would be had within the Party and the ground would shift. I was working in the same building at the Marxism Today people, all that crew, some of who were very bright and very interesting. But that didn’t happen. We’re talking only about a relatively short period of time but there just wasn’t a possibility that any serious discussions about Marxism were going to go on inside the Young Communist League or the Communist Party. So I just stopped going.


                                            

For C81, NME printed a 2-page (or possibly 4-page?) pull-out, a mosaic of little items on each contributing band and its song. Sometimes written by the group itself, other times written by a journalist. The idea was to fold the pull-out up and stuff in with the cassette (when it arrived) although this proved quite challenging. Above is the Scritti's deliciously cryptic text to go with "The 'Sweetest Girl', which opened side one of C81. I discovered some years later that the first paragraph is from Roland Barthes's The Lover's Discourse - a clear sign of Green's "linguistic turn", away from the hand-wringing guilt towards jouissance. (The concept after which he would name his song- publishing company). (See end of blogpost for C81 cover, full pull-out etc)

S: The last song on Early is the B-Side of “The ‘Sweetest Girl’, ‘Lions After Slumber’, which was always one of my favorite songs of yours. Where does the title come from?

G: ‘Lions after slumber/unvanquishable number’--that’s Blake, isn’t it?  I think it’s the slumbering proletariat--that’s basically what he was writing about, in his way. 

[Actually it’s Shelley - the same poem 'The Masque of Anarchy", inspired by the Peterloo Massacre, that produced "for the many, not the few" - the Corbyn-era Labour Party's slogan - via the final verse: Rise, like lions after slumber/In unvanquishable number!/Shake your chains to earth like dew / Which in sleep had fallen on you: Ye are many—they are few! ]

                                 

S: The lyrics, though, are more like Whitman’s idea of “I myself contain multitudes”. The idea of the self as a population of  heterogenous desires, impulses, states of mind, bodily attitudes, langours, fleeting perceptions…  And the connection between Whitman and Blake would be there’s that kind of slippage between this internal population and a kind of political populism, a rude democracy.  Whitman, if I recall correctly, kind of maps his own body onto the bustling, heterogenous masses of America.

G: “Lions” is the listy one, right. What is it to do with, if I had to say something about it, it’s just a little relativistic hymn. It’s anti-singularity. It would mean that I am made up of a million… not points, but intersections. Something… something completely fucking stupid like that! You have to bear in mind I don’t remember what on earth I was going on about. I can’t recall the lyrics. Thankfully!


S: How did Tom and Niall and Matthew and the rest of the crew respond to the New Direction for Scritti’s music? When they read your theoretical jottings, were they instantly swayed or were they guarded about it for some while?

G: They came to Wales and stayed in the cottage for I don’t know how long--long enough for everyone to read and digest it. A bit of time. The only thing I do remember from that time in the cottage is that we were attacked by a group of bikers who kicked the front door of the cottage in. Even in Wales, you see, we could never get away from people who didn’t like the look of you and wanted to kick your head in.  I really didn’t know which way it was going to go, or what people would make of my writings. And although the big shift was accepted in theory, I think the lived practice of it didn’t sit well with Niall particularly. We were just under the general pressures of doing what we were doing, and doing other things extra-curricularly that had their own pressures… I don’t remember precisely when it was, but the radical gesture of the move to pop was not as wholeheartedly embraced by Niall in particular. And there came a point where we were playing with two bass players--one who could do the funk stuff, and Niall who couldn’t. And I guess from then on it became a kind of untenable position. But that
possibly had a lot to do with how badly I handled things.



S: So do you reproach yourself then, for what happened with the original Scritti members?

G: Oh, I’d reproach myself for the whole fucking  enterprise. I should have stayed in bed, or gone to Birmingham, or done something else. I think I was probably… well, we were young. I don’t know what to say, other than that Niall was one of the fantastic influences on my life, and continues to be. But you drift apart. Things fall apart!

S:  You’re not in contact then.

G: No.  I’m not in contact with anybody from the past, at all, ever, in any way.



S: There was this process where it was gradually revealed that, even in the earliest days of the collective, you were always the main musical figure in terms of writing the songs. And so, effectively, the leader.

G: I genuinely didn’t think of myself as the leader of anything. It just felt like something we were doing. People around me, like Dennis, this guy who was another art student from Leeds, he was an incredibly bright person who’d come and say he’d just read this in something, and ‘you should read it’. Or ‘here’s some writing by Eagleton, and what do you think of it?’ And Niall was obviously very bright. There was just a lot of bright, funny, dynamic, interesting people around.

S: So all that fed into what you were doing lyrically, and in terms of conceptualizing the project. But in practical terms, musically, it was you, right? The songwriter.

G: Yeah.   But there were various reasons why that didn’t seem in itself feel particularly privileged.  I don’t think we would have let it be. I wasn’t quietly going to bed at nights thinking ‘I’m the one that’s writing all the songs’. That really would never have crossed my mind, to think that that was a privileged thing. I knew that I wasn’t any cleverer or anything else than any of the people around me.

S: It is an amazing thing, this idea of this musical collective where there were four or five times as many non-musical members as the core band, and where the non-musicians actually contributed.

G: It wasn’t like everybody would come in the rehearsal room when you were figuring stuff out, but everybody expressed their opinion, I think. It didn’t seem strange to me. And before punk, the only band I’d actually been close to, within sniffable distance, where you could see what the musicians might be like as real human beings, that was Henry Cow. And of course they were always reading and talking. And they walked it like they talked it. It was a whole life.  It wasn’t about a career in music. It was about a whole life.



S:  With the third single of the new pop Scritti, ‘Asylums In Jerusalem”, the B-Side is “Jacques Derrida’, which I’m still very fond of. The lyric is a bit cute, that central idea of ‘I’m in love with Jacques Derrida’. But musically I’ve never quite been able to place it, that rhythm. Is it country, or Cajun?

G: I don’t really know where that song’s coming from either, but it’s my own mutant take on The Kinks. When I went to Wales and listened to Aretha Franklin for the first time, I was also actually listening to the first Kinks records for the first time. A lot of their stuff I never knew. So a big influence on that song would have been The Kinks, and there was a country influence on the Kinks.



S: Given your massive love of hip hop now, and teaming up with MCs on Anomie and Bonhomie, what do you reckon on your own rather jejeune attempt at rapping on ‘Jacques Derrida’?

G: [explodes with laughter] Oh my God, I’d forgotten. Oh my GOD.  [slowly pulling himself together].  Well, I guess I’m laughing, so as long as I don’t have to actually hear it, the idea of it is… funny.


S:  In the rap section, you go on about “desire is so contagious/I want to eat your nation state”. I like those lines. ‘Desire’ was a big buzzword at the time, sort of drifting over from journals like Semiotexte, into the hipper end of pop culture, wasn’t it?

G: Yeah, desire was all over the place! Desire was…  everybody was writing about it, thinking about it:  what was it, where was it, what should we do about it. Hahahahaha!.


S: Another cute line is the nod to Wittgenstein in “Getting’ Havin’ Holdin’”, where you say ‘it’s as true as the Tractatus’.

G: To me, a lot of it is funny. ‘True like the Tractatus’--it’s funny, I think. We just used to laugh. It has its levels

                                                  
Okay, I was wrong in the book about there was little chance Green's lyrics would ever appear in Smash Hits. 

S:  I loved Songs To Remember at the time, and probably this wasn’t your intention and from your point of view would  have been considered a shortfall, but it was a big student fave that Michaelmas term, all the through the autumn and into the winter, you’d hear it in a lot  of student rooms. But I imagine you had your heart set more on people who buy their records at Woolworths. The difference between Songs To Remember and the third-stage of Scritti, with Cupid & Psyche, is that by that point you seem to perfect this style of lyric writing where the words can pass for a love song but has these aporias cleverly woven in there So they work as love songs, but they have little mind-bombs inside.  Songs to Remember, though, it’s difficult to know what your average pop consumer would have made of a song like “Asylums in Jerusalem”. From the title on down, it’s not really yer typical pop ditty. It’s something to do with Nietzche, right?

G:   Asylums in Jerusalem was Nietzche’s thing about the preponderance of desert prophets, of seers and sages. They were Jesus’s competitors, and they went into the desert and sat atop forty foot poles and had visions. There were so many they had to build asylums in Jerusalem to house them.

S: So  Monty Python’s Life of Brian is based on reality! That you could virtually trip over messiahs in Israel back in those days.

G: That was Nietzche’s point. Yes you’re quite right, I did go from doing that kind of thing to writing songs that weren’t called things like ‘Asylums in Jerusalem’. But I am again now! Hahahaha. Oh  my God, it’s funny listening to my lyrics of today….  I don’t know what anyone would make of ‘em.

                                        

                                        



S:  I didn’t notice this until only a few days ago, but I dug out Anomie and Bonhomie, and noticed that it continues the Scritti running theme of consumer disposables - the cheap classiness of the Dunhill, Dior, Courvoisier packaging copied on "Sweetest", "Faithless, "Asylums". So you have a bottlecap, echoing back to the discarded beer bottle cap photocopied and all grainy and grubby-looking on Peel Sessions , but on Anomie, it’s this ultra-glossy, hyper-realist painting of a bottle cap. So it’s sort of fusing the grubby realism of the do-it-yourself era Scritti cover design with the glossy glamour of ‘Sweetest’/’Faithless’/Cupid & Psyche.

G: I guess the tools to hand back in the early days were the photocopier, and you would gather what there was and make use of the photocopier. So it would be whatever was on the kitchen table as the record labels were being hand stamped and the covers being folded by hand--stuff like bottle caps and match boxes. Nowadays anyone can sit around with a computer and fiddle round and take an ordinary bottle top and stick your name on it so it looks like a found object--but it’s still an extension of that original design approach, in some dimension.

                                    
 S: Songs To Remember was successful, but it didn’t turn you into a pop star, as desired. There was never the Top 40 hit you were looking for. So you hooked up with Bob Last as your manager. He’s a very smart guy, grounded in left politics and critical theory, so was he a kindred spirit?

G: Yeah. Fast Product was always very interesting. I’d always liked what was going on with them. Geoff was very tight with Bob and had a lot of respect for him. And then he had the Human League and ABC.

S:  I hadn’t quite realized until doing the book that Last had this amazing trinity of New Pop pioneers under his management wing: ABC, Human League, Scritti. Oh, and Heaven 17 too.

G: I think he thought the same way about things as people like Martin Fry. I never spoke to Martin about it, but I know from people like Ian Craig Marsh from Heaven 17, who I still see--he’s one of the few people from my past I still occasionally see--that we would have shared a lot of common ground. And I know that intellectually and politically Bob was coming from the same area.




A transitional Scritti rehearsal jam out of which emerges a prototype for "Wood Beez" - date unknown 

S: How did the connection with David Gamson and Fred Maher come about?

G:  With Gamson, I went into Rough Trade one day and played Geoff some of what I’d started to write and it had obviously got a black American New York influence and as far as I can recall, he had just visited ZE records. He’d just got back from New York, and he had overheard Gamson having the meeting ahead of him [with ZE boss Michael Zilkha]. Gamson was still a schoolboy, he was at school, or maybe it was Sarah Lawrence college, the equivalent of  sixth form, but he’d made a track at a local studio and taken it to  Zilkha to see if ZE would put it out. Zilkha passed, but Geoff heard it through the door of the office and said he liked it and he put it out on Rough Trade. And he came back and when he heard my new stuff he said  ‘you should hear this thing this kid in New York has done.’  And then they sent David by mistake--in typical Rough Trade fashion--a test pressing not of his song but of “The ‘Sweetest Girl’”, So he got to hear that, and his twin passions were--he was Anglophile, so he liked the whole Robert Wyatt thing, but he also  knew Parliament-Funkadelic, he’d grown up with black radio stations in New York.
So Geoff said, ‘I think you should meet him’ and he flew Gamson over.”



S: So with the Wyatt and black music passions in common, you had a lot of musical affinity. But was he different from you, and the original Scrits, in that he was not so much of a theory head?

G: He wasn’t really … It’s wrong to say that in one way, because he’s an incredibly bright guy. But he was that much younger, he was still at Sarah Lawrence, still living with his folks. His mother was a dancer, and his father was an opera guy, an assistant to Bernstein, so it was a very different world. Although they were liberal and intellectual up to a point, it was worlds apart. Which wasn’t to say that he wasn’t….. I mean,
if you go to his house in LA now, you’ll find really pretty interesting bookshelves. He’s a smart guy.



S: But for you too, wasn’t there a sense in which for a while the technicality of making these ultra-modern, super-precise records kind of took over for a while, eclipsing the theory side of things?  Because making Cupid & Psyche, that was incredibly intricate work, wasn’t it?

G: Yeah, it took a long, long time, and an awful lot of money. That record was interested in exploiting all the new technology at the time, and it was also about expressing those really black pop influences, the world of sixteenth notes and syncopation. A whole new language of talking about music for me. I had never spoken of bars and beats or anything before in my life. So there was a certain exhilaration in discovering that and being surrounded by musicians who could do that.



But at the same time as big an influence-- although it was never expressed--was hip hop, which was what we were doing by day as it were, or by night. And I didn’t stop reading and writing when I moved to New York. I was as avidly reading whatever I could--philosophy, and making notes about it and its relationship with dance music or whatever.

Got the idea somewhere that the text on the front of "The Word Girl" is taken from Lacan's Ecrits. I'm sure I read that somewhere...

S: Cupid & Psyche, some of the ‘love songs’ on it, I’m thinking especially of “A Little Knowledge”, there’s quite a bleak vision of love there. “Now I know to love you/Is not to know you”. Is that related to Lacan and the idea that there’s no such thing as the sexual relationship, that you can’t actually relate to anyone, really?

G: Yeah, that sounds about right.

S: Which is a terribly gloomy view of human love and relationships.

G: I’m very much in love now.

                                             

S: Oh are you--great!

G: Yeah. I am. And very happy too. I’m not a stranger to … I must admit I’m beginning to flag a little here. Just a bit knackered. I’ve been singing all morning and stuff. But please feel free to ring me again tomorrow if there’s anything else. Have you and I never met?


S: Around Provision, for Melody Maker.

G: Wow. That was a low point, I think. Where was I?

S:  In London. One thing that surprised me--although it makes sense now given your love of folk music--is I asked what you liked of current music and you said ‘I like the Proclaimers’ and that really threw me for a loop! I remember you seemed a bit worn out that day. You’d been on the treadmill of interviews around that record.

G: I didn’t enjoy that record at all, and I enjoyed promoting it even less.


S:  That was going to be my final question, actually. What went wrong with Provision? Was the process of recording just too protracted?

G:  I don’t know. I didn’t take the necessary time out to figure out what I was doing. After Cupid and Psyche, we did a very big world promotional tour, because we wouldn’t play live. So they said ‘go round all around the world and do every little TV and radio station that there is. And then go back in the studio’. Which we were keen to do.

S: So have you really never played live since that Brighton gig supporting Gang of Four?

G: No. Which is quite extraordinary. I did the Mojo Awards and I went along with Carl from the Libertines to present an award to Geoff Travis, last year, and I was most shocked to be approached by the Red Hot Chili Peppers. And they said ‘we just wanted to say what enormous fans we are of your early music’. They knew all that ‘Skank Bloc Bologna’ stuff. They were playing it on their tour bus. They were so polite and so knowledgeable about it.

S:  I knew they were big fans of Gang of Four but I didn’t know they liked Scritti too!

G: They knew it all. It was amazing. I think they were surprised that A/ I was there and B/ that I was alive and C/ basically that I’d made a living out of music for 20 odd years and had only made four albums and didn’t play live.

S: Did Cupid’s success make you quite well off then?

G: I think it must have. I don’t know how, but it’s kept me afloat for years and years.




S: The Miles Davis cover version of “Perfect Way” must have helped. But you were saying about Provision…

G:  I think with Provision,  I was possibly holed up in White Plains living in a hotel, for a very long time--going probably quite barmy and losing a little bit of critical distance. HAHAHAHA!!! So I made sure I had plenty of that in the following years.








further writing (by me)

me on politics and pop from Sex Pistols to Spiral Tribe, via TRB, Crass, Go4, Scrits, Dexys and Red Wedge

me on "Lions After Slumber" in this thing on 5 key postpunk tracks

my sleevenotes for the Absolute compilation 2011



me on bands who went from postpunk to new pop (including Scritti) 

me on Scritti circa White Bread and Hot Chip and the Brit projection towards black American music, for Slate, 2006 

my interview for The Guardian with Green circa White Bread Black Beer

my interview with Green in 1988 around Provision for Melody Maker

footnotes to the Messthetics chapter in Rip It Up with further me-thoughts + quotes from 
Green and bystanders

footnotes to the Play to Win chapter in Rip It Up with further me-thoughts + New Pop era quotes from Green and bystanders

footnotes to the New Gold Dreams chapter in Rip It Up with further me-thoughts + Cupid-era quotes from Green and bystanders

my postpunk London cartography (with section on Camden) for Time Out



further writing (by others)


another one of those life-changing pieces by Barney Hoskyns - interviewing Green as he unveils the new pop Scritti   in NME

Ian, penning(man) a communiqe for his communards 

John Williams (author of Faithless, a neo-noir novel loosely based on Scritti) delves deep into his memories of hanging out at 1 Carol St and nearby pubs with the Collective, as well as doing the After Hours fanzine (issue w/ Scritti interview readable in full here). Via Indie Through the Looking Glass website. 

Green Gartside talking about his love of Sandy Denny and Fairport Convention at Drowned In Sound

Treasury of Scrit talk and Scrit write


further listening

a couple of interviews with Green from back in the day, posted by Bobcast

'Morrocci Klung!' independent tapezine. Previously unreleased, full unedited conversation for the unpublished Dec 1981 edition (nearly 2 hours).



Greenwich Sound Radio 'Creatures What You Never Knew About' 1983 Green Gartside talks and plays records from his collection (54 mins), in two parts. 








Miscellaneous

What Tom Morley did next



Green does the singles in Melody Maker summer 1982










                                                




                                    





a life changing piece - Barney Hoskyns in dialogue with Green in the NME. Must have read this a dozen a times,